’WPCU ÷>䲅ŲDŅ•Öį9“׌W°·Jč€¼‚ŠB¬z]·ĄµīTK`Ø#‚”Jø:?ķ•†"3 \@rØG“ BŗøVPĀ¶™Ō³Bm›0”"QŸ}€Ō'_Ī9yzZń=>i*šPēPĶ~Ü fa>ŗū…KqŃyÆłdēY5¦æį‘.Õ~FY™,ŁÓoęĶ#ęæØ€ēĶŚlŁ&°+L¾ÖÓDŃé½°¹r^ŖūĖ_„`„żŅKz·~łÆ½&µ5Å`9r™Šń:„‚ŠŚŒ‰żDZey¬¤Ö ķt³·„aPź¢6«ł>ĒaߙeµŽœ¤·`õēÜĀ;“ļįe;QjjzœłcŽÖO֕&_„rŹ¤=“ĘØŃįü~óėĢf@Śćm&Źµy ¤WŒuļ3˜:ŃX_—”)2lń†M PiĖ :{ ēåqłņBś–'M C€“’ —”ķāEJ…± ¢×Ėzöƒ1ŽCäč¬1“µ;83+;·Ļ·r„w†’iŹ',·>Vš]=õ«7«VĢ<tNžī Ź¶ń”“6’Qęģ“.olÅŅ5åņ¶å ¬ķwō~/ ķĢŚą„+÷ÓbAY¢ÉŌŃ®J#čŖyżkŠ¹ #!¶UN× %% 0:+^ ewq4u‰˜ mš¢±NS˜HP LaserJet IIISiŲ,,,,,Ų,0(ČhH  Z‹6Times New Roman RegularX(üœ$””ŌUSUS.,Ōāk†+ĘoQž*C'Ę»Corel3|x’U‹’ĄĄĄ Praveen AmarSTAPPAALAPCO pdfQA EPRIOpalinskiEarthjusticeSchanbacher ECOSOffenRaherfluidizedStadler SCR SNCRwebsitethat thatparticulatesShanahanNatansortablebaghousesKilgroeRosslerspeciationspeciatedspeciationsZeugin CEMJonker NOxcombustorsŻ ƒüœ!ŻŌUSUS.,ŌŻ  ŻŌ_ŌŃ8€XdģdČ8ŃÓ  ÓSummary€of€Utility€MACT€Working€GroupĢ(Clean€Air€Act€Advisory€Committee,ĢPermits/New€Source€Review/Air€Toxics€Subcommittee)ĢNovember€5,€2001,€8:00€„€10:00€a.m.ĢWashington,€D.C.ĢĢÓ  ÓĢJohn€Paul:€€Letššs€go€ahead€and€real€briefly€go€around€and€introduce€ourselves.€€We€have€primarilyĻone€major€presentation€today€and€then€we€will€do€discussions€on€that€and€this€is€on€the€data€thatĻEPA€has€available.€€I€think€that€probably€at€the€end€of€all€that,€too,€we€will€want€to€talk€a€little€bitĻabout€the€schedule.€€We€have€to€make€up€our€minds€as€to€whether€or€not€we€are€going€to€have€aĻmeeting€between€now€and€Thanksgiving.€€My€name€is€John€Paul€and€I€am€Supervisor€of€theĻRegional€Air€Pollution€Control€Agency,€a€six€county€local€agency€in€Dayton,€Ohio.ĢĢSally€Shaver,€EPAĢĢLarry€Monroe,€representing€Charles€Goodman€from€Southern€Company.€€ĢĢPraveen€Amar€with€NESCAUM.€€We€represent€eight€States€in€the€northeast.ĢĢBill€Wemhoff€representing€the€Electric€Cooperatives€for€Rich€Midulla€at€Seminole.ĢĢDick€Wilson,€National€Environmental€StrategiesĢĢMike€Geers€representing€Bill€Tyndall€of€CinergyĢĢFelice€Stadler,€the€National€Wildlife€FederationĢĢJeff€Smith,€Institute€of€Clean€Air€CompaniesĢĢPatricio€Silva,€Natural€Resources€Defense€CouncilĢĢMichael€Rossler,€Edison€Electrical€InstituteĢĢJohn€Shanahan,€National€Mining€AssociationĢĢLee€Zeugin€from€Hunton€&€Williams€representing€the€Utility€Air€Regulatory€GroupĢĢPat€Raher,€Hogan€&€HartsonĢĢBob€Wyman,€Latham€&€WatkinsĢĢTom€Natan,€National€Environmental€TrustŠ h+ø&* Š‡Rob€LaCount,€PG&E€National€Energy€Group€representing€the€Clean€Energy€GroupĢĢSam€Wolfe,€PSEGĢĢBill€Bumpers€with€Baker€Botts€with€the€Class€of€85€Regulatory€Response€GroupĢĢBill€Becker€with€STAPPA/ALAPCOĢĢ[Presentation€by€Bill€Maxwell,€EPA.€€See€separate€file€š šMACT_data_110501.pdfšš.]ĢĢBill€Becker:€Can€I€ask€a€question?ĢĢBill€Maxwell:€SureĢĢBill€Becker:€Did€the€industry€believe€that€also?€€You€said€we,€that€is€EPA.ĢĢBill€Maxwell:€I€donššt€know,€you€will€have€to,€I€guess.€.€.ĢĢBill€Becker:€Is€there€a€controversy€about€whether.€.€.ĢĢBill€Maxwell:€I€have€heard€of€no€controversy€on€the€coal€data.€€Part€of€this€QA/QC,€we€foundĻsubbituminous€from€Virginia.€€There€is€no€subbituminous€in€Virginia.€€We€called€the€plant.€€ThisĻwas€back€and€forth€with€primarily€EPRI€but€there€has€been€some€follow„up€and€oops,€we€checkedĻthe€wrong€box,€but€as€far€the€adequacy€or€the€accuracy€of€the€data,€Iššve€heard€no€real€dissent.ĢĢJohn€Paul:€€Before€we€go€to€questions€letššs€identify€those€that€are€one€the€phone.€€So,€if€you€areĻon€the€phone,€could€you€identify€yourself,€please?ĢĢBliss€Higgins,€LouisianaĢĢMichael€Shore€with€Environmental€DefenseĢĢMartha€Keating€with€the€Clean€Air€Task€ForceĢĢAnn€Weeks€with€the€Clean€Air€Task€ForceĢĢMichael€Opalinski€with€Seminole€Electric€CooperativeĢĢJim€Pew€and€Sandy€Schubert€with€EarthjusticeĢĢDavid€Schanbacher€with€Texas€Natural€Resources€and€ECOSĢĢGeorge€Offen,€Leonard€Levin,€and€Paul€Chu€with€EPRIŠ h+ø&* Š‡Ann€Berwick€with€M.€J.€Bradley€Associates€and€the€Clean€Energy€GroupĢĢJohn€Paul:€€Okay,€any€others?€€Well,€welcome.€€Okay,€letššs€see€if€we€have€any€questions€for€BillĻMaxwell.ĢĢPraveen€Amar:€Just€a€quick€question€first€Bill.€€You€mentioned€NOņņxóó€control€was€not€asked€whenŠ L œ Šyou€did€the€survey.€€I€mean€looking€back....ĢĢPraveen€Amar:€Bill,€I€was€going€to€ask€you,€you€did€not€ask€for€NOņņxóó€control.€€Looking€you€back,Š  ` Šshould€you€have?ĢĢBill€Maxwell:€We€did€ask€for€the€type€of€NOņņxóó€control.€€We€did€not€categorize€the€plants€for€beingŠ Ō$  Šselected€for€method€š!š€Ontario„Hydro€testing€based€on€the€NOņņxóó€control.€€We€didnššt€categorize€atŠ Ą  Šthat€time€based€on€whether€they€had€or€didnššt€have€some€kind€of€NOņņxóó€control.Š ¬ü  ŠĢPraveen€Amar:€But€you€do€have€the€information?ĢĢBill:€Yes,€we€do€have€the€information€and€based€on€the€data€that€was€received,€we€did€do€someĻfiner€categorization€later€for€use€in€the€national€model.€€But€the€type€of€NOņņxóó€control€was€not€oneŠ H˜ Šof€the€criteria€that€was€used€to€categorize€the€plants€initially.ĢĢPat€Raher:€Bill,€I€had€a€question€on€page€two€of€the€little€slides€that€you€handed€out,€you€talkedĻabout€š!š€and€the€last€slide€at€the€bottom€„„€š šall€coal„fired€units€categorized€based€onšš€and€thenĻabout€the€fourth€bullet€down€says€š šalso€categories€for€fluidized€bed,€coal„gasification,€36Ļpopulated€categoriesšš€and€yet€on€the€very€next€slide€you€say€š šcategories€not€based€onšš€and€weĻhave€boiler„type.€€Iššm€not€sure€I€understand€the€difference€when€you€are€talking€about€theĻcategories€of€fluidized€bed€and€everything€else€and€then€you€say€categories€not€based€on.ĢĢBill€Maxwell:€We€did€not€š!š€for€example,€wall„fired€versus€t„fired€versus€arch„fired,€we€did€not€doĻthat.€€We€recognized€that€coal€gasification€and€fluidized€bed€were€both€methods€of,€for€example,ĻSOņņ2óó€control€and€a€type€of€boiler,€so€we€did€give€them€a€category,€but€we€didnššt€go€farther€like€IŠ X Ø Šsaid,€front„fired€or€wall„fired€or€wet€versus€dry.€€Again,€that€is€some€of€the€information€that€weĻgot€in€similar€to€the€NOņņxóó€so€that€you€could€look€at€distinctions€between€wet€versus€dry,€but€thatŠ 0"€  Šwas€not€an€original€criteria.ĢĢFelice€Stadler:€Do€you€have€a€š!š€I€know€Iššve€seen€this€before€š!š€a€breakdown€of€the€number€of€testsĻfor€each€of€the€different€categories€with€a€better€sense€of€how€many€stack€tests€you€did€run€forĻthose€units€that€have€SCR,€SNCR€versus€some€of€the€other€control€configurations?ĢĢBill€Maxwell:€Yes,€we€have€that.€€That€is€all€on€the€website.€€I€didnššt€bring€that€but€we€haveĻbroken€it€out€based€on€what€š!š€into€the€finer€categories€and€SCR/SNCR€is€one€of€the€categoriesĻthat€we€broke€out€into.€€That€data€is€all€on€the€web.€€I€didnššt€bring€it.ĢŠ h+ø&* ŠJim€Pew:€I€had€a€question€about€HAP€other€than€mercury.€€What€kind€of€emissions€data€do€youĻhave€for€those?ĢĢBill€Maxwell:€We€got€no€information€through€the€ICR€or€any€HAP€other€than€mercury.€€The€onlyĻHAP€information€for€non„mercury€is€what€is€included€in€the€Final€Report€to€Congress.ĢĢJim€Pew:€How€are€you€going€to€set€the€standards€for€those€HAP?ĢĢBill€Maxwell:€We€will€be€using€that€data€and€any€other€data€that€becomes€available.ĢĢJim€Pew:€But€I€mean€if€you€donššt€have€any€non„mercury€HAP€data,€what€are€you€going€to€do€toĻget€it?ĢĢBill€Maxwell:€We€have€non„mercury€HAP,€it€is€that€that€is€included€in€the€Final€Report€toĻCongress.€€We€did€not€acquire€any€additional€non„mercury€HAP.ĢĢJim€Pew:€So€you€donššt€have€any€plans€to€acquire€any€additional€non„mercury€HAP?ĢĢBill€Maxwell:€Not€at€this€time?ĢĢPat€Raher:€Bill,€again,€on€page€two,€your€second€slide€on€your€background€of€coal€analysis,€youĻtalked€about€the€analysis€method€was€not€mandated€by€EPA.€€Can€you€give€me€a€little€bit€ofĻbackground€whether€or€not€it€makes€any€difference,€if€letššs€say€virtually€everybody,€I€know€this€isĻnot€likely,€every€person,€every€site€used€a€different€analysis€method?€€Would€that€have€been€aĻproblem,€do€you€think€it€is€a€problem,€did€you€take€a€look€at€it?ĢĢBill€Maxwell:€We€did€take€a€look€at€it€to€some€extent.€€The€people€in€the€Emission€MeasurementĻCenter€felt€that€there€was€few€enough€different€methods€that€could€be€used€that€that€would€not€beĻa€problem.ĢĢBill€Becker:€I€have€two€questions.€€I€will€start€with€the€one€is€a€follow„up€to€Jim€Pewššs€question,Ļwhich€I€thought€was€a€fair€question,€about€the€non„mercury€data.€€Do€you€feel€confident€enoughĻabout€the€information€you€collected€from€the€Congressional€Report€to€be€able€to€make€aĻdetermination€on€the€non„mercury€data?€€And€if€so,€thatššs€why€you€are€not€seeking€additionalĻinformation€elsewhere€or€is€there€sufficient€data€there€to€make€a€determination€one€way€orĻanother?€€And€then€I€have€a€follow„up€question.ĢĢBill€Maxwell:€I€think€the€answer€is€yes.€€The€determination€was€made€based€on€the€data€we€had.€ĻMercury€was€the€pollutant€that€seemed€to€be€the€most€problematical€with€regard€to€š šare€thereĻgoing€to€be€controls€available,šš€š šwhatššs€the€level€of€emissions.šš€€The€other€trace€metal€HAP,€forĻexample,€behave€like€particulates.€€Good€particulate€control€takes€care€of€them.€€The€acid€gases,Ļyour€SOņņ2óó€controls€will€take€care€of.€€Mercury€was€the€pollutant€that€seemed€to€be,€again,€mostŠ |*Ģ%) Šproblematic€with€regard€to€how€much€is€really€coming€out€and€are€there€any€controls€out€thereŠ h+ø&* Šthat€will€do€anything.€€So,€yes,€we€feel€like€there€is€sufficient€information.€€I€guess€that€could€be€aĻtopic€for€this€group€but€we€feel€that€the€information€is€available€to€allow€us€to€go€forward€with€theĻother€HAP,€separate€from€mercury.ĢĢBill€Becker:€And€then€I€have€a€second€question€relating€to€the€middle€slide€on€page€six€and€youĻmentioned€that€you€took€measurements€before€and€after€the€last€control€device€and€is€there€anyĻsignificance€to€doing€it€that€way?€€Is€there€anything€missing€in€between€here?€€Are€there€otherĻthings€or€future€configurations€that€could€be€made€that€would€result€in€emissions€that€are€notĻtracked€through€the€testing€before€and€after€your€last€control€device?€€I€didnššt€understand€theĻsignificance€of€doing€it€that€way.ĢĢBill€Maxwell:€I€guess€the€question€was€why€did€we€just€test€before€and€after€the€last€controlĻdevice.€€Did€we€lose€anything?€€Well,€the€other€options€would€be€to€test€before€and€after€each€ofĻthe€control€devices,€which€imposes€additional€costs€on€those€units€that€have€more€than€oneĻcontrol€device.€€We€felt€that€by€doing€it€around€the€last€control€device,€we€would€end€up€with€dataĻfor€all€types€of€control€devices€and€that€we€could€then€use€that€data€to€assemble€a€plant€that€hadĻmore€than€one€control€and€get€adequate€results.€€I€donššt€think€we€are€losing€anything.€€Yes,€thereĻcould€be€a€new€control€device€but€if€it€is€not€out€there€now,€we€would€not€have€been€able€to€getĻtest€data€on€it€anyway.€€I€donššt€know€if€that€answers€you.ĢĢPat€Raher:€Just€a€follow€on€Bill€to€what€the€question€that€Bill€(Becker)€was€just€asking.€€Iššll€try€toĻmake€this€simple.€€If€I€have€three€potential€control€devices€that€a€facility€could€have€and€all€threeĻfacilities€end€up€with€a€wet€scrubber€as€the€last€control€device,€but€they€donššt€all€have€the€otherĻtwo€control€devices.€€Some€have€all€three,€some€have€one,€some€have€two.€€Isnššt€that€going€toĻeffect€somehow€the€data€unless€as€you€categorize€it€and€pull€it€together,€you€know€that€devicesĻone,€two,€and€three€with€the€last€wet€scrubber€give€you€this€set€of€numbers,€whereas€one€and€theĻlast€wet€scrubber€will€give€you€a€different€set.€€Am€I€clear€enough€on€this?€€Iššm€just€wonderingĻwhen€you€look,€I€think€thatššs€what€Bill€(Becker)€was€saying,€when€you€look€at€just€the€last€unit,€ifĻyou€donššt€take€into€consideration€or€somehow€control€or€divide€your€data€by€whatššs€in€front€ofĻthat€unit,€how€does€anyone€know€what€the€combined€controls€will€result€in?ĢĢBill€Maxwell:€As€we€looked€at€the€data,€and€I€think€as€EPRI€looked€at€the€data,€there€was€someĻindication€that€you€could€almost€believe€that€the€way€the€mercury€behaved€in€the€last€controlĻdevice€was€dependent€on€what€was€before€it.€€But€in€testing€before€and€after,€we€were€able€to€getĻpercent€reductions€and€so€we€would€apply€those€reductions€to€if€a€unit,€for€example,€had€an€ESPĻand€a€scrubber,€we€would€have€data€on€ESPššs€and€what€they€would€remove€and€then€taking€thatĻoutlet€data,€apply€what€the€scrubber€did.€€That€is€what€we€did.€€You€talk€about€three€controls,Ļthatššs€where€the€Ō_ŌNOņņxóóŌ_Ō€came€in.€€We€found€out€that€SNCR€or€SCR€did€in€fact,€maybe,€play€a€part.€Š Ģ&"% ŠSo€here€was€the€third€control€that€we€fit€into€the€system.€€That€data€are€pretty€limited€so€there€isĻmore€research€going€on€the€impact€of€SCR€and€SNCR€but€thatššs€what€we€did.ĢĢJohn€Paul:€Let€me€follow€up€on€that.€€One€of€the€presentations€that€we€had€in€our€first€meetingĻlisted€a€table€and€in€the€table€would€be€listed€various€combinations€of€control€equipment€and€thenŠ h+ø&* Šwith€a€percent€reduction€listed€there,€so€it€would€have€a€hot„side€ESP€and€several€other€things€andĻthen€it€would€list€it€and€I€guess€the€question€thatššs€going€here€is€that€when€you€have€thatĻcombination€and€you€have€95€percent€control,€but€then€when€we€see€your€presentation€here€andĻthe€fact€that€the€percent€removal€was€just€measured€at€the€last€device,€so€I€think€thatššs€whatššsĻgenerating€the€question.€€Can€you€have€95€percent€listed€as€a€control€for€a€certain€combination,Ļbut€the€stack€test€was€just€before€and€after€the€last€device?ĢĢBill€Maxwell:€Yeah,€like€I€say,€that€is€where€we€use€the€percent€reduction.€€I€mean€if€your€ESPĻgot€30€percent€then€whatever€went€into€that,€we€took€30€percent€and€you€only€have€70€percentĻgoing€out€and€then€apply€the€removal€for€the€scrubber€against€that€70€percent.ĢĢJohn€Paul:€The€question€was,€though,€if€you€are€just€measuring€before€the€last€device€how€do€youĻknow€what€the€previous€devices,€what€their€percent€reduction€is?ĢĢBill€Maxwell:€You€donššt.€€You€use€the€data€from€other€facilities€with€a€similar€device.€€That€isĻwhat€we€did.ĢĢJohn€Paul:€Okay,€then€the€question€is€letššs€say€it€looks€as€though€a€certain€combination€is€the€bestĻand€that€can€get€you€95€percent.€€Do€we€have€stack€test€data€before€and€after€that€wholeĻcombination€in€one€place?ĢĢBill:€NoĢĢJohn€Paul:€But€someone€else€might€have€that€data?ĢĢBill€Maxwell:€Might.€€We€may€have€it€in€one€case.€€I€think€one€of€the€DOE€tests,€thatššs€what€theyĻdid€before€and€after€ESP€and€then€after€the€scrubber,€but€that€is€just€one€case.ĢĢJohn€Paul:€Okay,€does€that€help,€Pat?€€Bill?ĢĢBill€Becker:€That€was€goodĢĢņ ņó óBill€Bumpers:€I€hate€to€take€us€off€this€topic,€but€will€you€at€some€point€do€a€presentation€on€theŠ 0"€  Šdata€that€you€have€for€oil„fired€units€that€shows€what€the€test€methods€were,€the€adequacy€of€theĻdata,€and€what€the€results€are?ĢĢBill€Maxwell:€We€donššt€have€plans€for€that€at€this€time.ĢĢBill€Bumpers:€Do€you€have€the€data€that€you€can€share€with€us€who€care€about€this€so€we€can€tryĻto€figure€it€out€ourselves,€then?ĢĢBill€Maxwell:€Yeah.ĢŠ h+ø&* ŠJohn€Paul:€Maybe€once€you€have€seen€that,€you€can€let€us€know€whether€or€not€you€think€aĻpresentation€to€the€group€would€be€appropriate?ĢĢBill€Bumpers:€We€have€a€fair€amount€of€data€ourselves€and€we€already€think€that€it€would€beĻappropriate.€€Weššll€look€at€what€you€all€have€so€that€we€can€try€to€expand€on€that.€€ĢĢJohn€Shanahan:€Yeah,€I€want€to€take€us€to€the€point€about€the€data€sets€and€the€Ontario„HydroĻmethod.€€We€were€looking€at€the€correlation€test€data€and€you€are€doing€your€data€points,€you€areĻdoing€that€within€the€confines€of€the€Ontario„Hydro€test€methodology.€€My€question€is€reallyĻgetting€to€what€are€other€methods€of€testing€the€coal€did€you€use,€even€if€it€wasnššt€the€primaryĻmethodology€and€you€have€more€scattered€data,€and€how€does€that€comport€with€the€Ontario„¼Hydro€data?€€How€closely€do€those€measurements,€different€measurements€of€the€coal,€track€eachĻother?ĢĢBill€Maxwell:€The€Ontario„Hydro€method€is€only€for€the€stack€gas,€not€for€the€coal,€so€youĻcanššt...ĢĢJohn€Shanahan:€Iššm€talking€about,€when€we€are€talking€about€your€mercury€content,€when€you€areĻmeasuring€your€mercury€content.ĢĢBill€Maxwell:€Okay,€the€Ontario„Hydro€is€used€to€measure€the€mercury€content€of€the€stack€gasĻand€so€there€is€nothing€to€compare€it€with.€€The€coal€data€is€separate.€€That€is€ASTM€methods€orĻsomething€like€that.ĢĢJohn€Shanahan:€Maybe€you€can€walk€through€why€they€differ,€how€it€differs,€the€different€aspectĻof€what€is€measuring,€and€why€you€have€differences€between€the€mercury€content€as€you€go€upĻthe€stack.€€You€got€input€and€output,€trying€to€understand€how€this€differs€from€measuring€theĻcoal€itself.ĢĢBill€Maxwell:€As€the€coal€is€burned,€the€mercury€is€liberated€in€different€forms,€particulate,€ionic,Ļor€elemental.€€The€Ontario„Hydro€method€only€measures€those€gaseous€forms€in€the€stack€gas.€€IĻmean€the€particulate€form€or€ionic€or€elemental.€€The€mercury€in€the€coal,€you€canššt€differentiateĻbetween€the€different€forms€because€they€havenššt€formed€yet.€€Perhaps€Iššm€not€fully€understandingĻyour...ĢĢJohn€Shanahan:€I€guess€Iššm€not.€€Iššm€trying€to€understand€when€you€say€you€canššt€measure.€€IsĻthere€not€a€total€mercury€content€either€when€broken€into€the€various€gaseous€forms?ĢĢBill€Maxwell:€The€total€š!š€the€Ontario„Hydro€method€will€give€you€a€total€mercury€content,€a€totalĻmercury€out€also.€€You€just€add€up€the€pieces.ĢĢJohn€Shanahan:€Excuse€me?ĢŠ h+ø&* ŠBill€Maxwell:€I€guess€Iššm€not€understanding.€€To€me€the€coal€š!š€you€get€a€total€mercury€in€the€coalĻand€you€can€get€a€total€mercury€off€the€stack,€but€by€two€completely€different€methods.€€YouĻcanššt€use€the€Ontario„Hydro€on€the€coal.€€ĢĢJohn€Shanahan:€If€your€total€š!š€just€walk€me€through,€Iššm€a€non„technical€person,€as€you€areĻwalking€through€using€both€methodologies€shouldnššt€the€totals€comport€with€one€another?€€AndĻwhy€not?€€Just€tell€me€why?ĢĢBill€Maxwell:€Because€some€of€the€mercury€is€coming€out€in€the€control€devices.€€That€is€whenĻwe€are€getting€70€to€80€percent€reduction,€the€rest€of€it€is€going€out€either€in€scrubber€sludge€orĻthe€various€ashes.€€We€did€not€measure€those€to€get€a€material€balance.ĢĢJohn€Paul:€I€think€once€again,€back€to€one€of€the€earlier€presentations,€based€on€the€coal€data,€IĻbelieve€the€figure€is€something€around€75€tons€of€mercury.€€Based€on€the€stack€test€methods€andĻvarious€estimates€there,€we€have€about€48€tons€of€mercury€going€out€the€stack€and€there€areĻdifferent€measurement€methods€for€measuring€mercury€in€the€coal€and€for€measuring€mercury€inĻthe€stack€gases.€€So,€75€tons€potential,€48€tons,€actual€emissions.ĢĢTom€Natan:€Thanks,€I€have€a€question€again€about€the€control€sequencing.€€Well,€actually€itššs€twoĻquestions.€€I€can€see€how€you€would€measure€around€the€last€control€device€and€so€you€now€haveĻan€inventory€of€control€devices€and€because€you€have€got€before€and€after,€you€have€removal€rate.€ĻBut€what€Iššm€not€so€certain€of,€is€because€it€is€the€last€control€device€it€would€seem€that€thereššsĻalready€been€some€mercury€removed,€so€you€know€that€when€the€mercury€level€is€lower€thenĻthatššs€the€removal€rate,€but€do€you€know€that€thatššs€still€the€removal€rate€if€it€is€the€first€controlĻdevice€in€a€series.€€So,€in€other€words,€if€one€plant€has€A„B„C€as€the€order€and€another€plant€hasĻB„A„C,€is€B€as€effective€at€removing€by€percent€when€itššs€the€first€control€device€as€it€is€when€it€isĻthe€second€or€third?€€I€get€š!š€do€you€actually€have€enough€data€to€say€that€with€any€certainty?ĢĢBill€Maxwell:€Probably€not€enough€data€to€say€with€100€percent€certainty€but€there€is€only€aĻlimited€number€of€permutations€and€combinations€that€you€can€have.€€The€scrubber€will€not€likelyĻbe€the€first€control€device.€€You€are€going€to€have€either€a€fabric€filter€or€an€electrostaticĻprecipitator.€€The€scrubber€will€likely€be€the€last€control€device,€so€there€is€not€a€lot€of€ways€thatĻyou€can€arrange€the€control€devices€and€still€function.€€Yes,€there€is€some€indication€that€it€mightĻmake€a€difference€but€we€still€feel€that€the€data€are€good.€€Because€that€first€control€device€is€notĻtaking€out€95€percent€or€100€percent€to€really€give€the€last€control€device€not€very€much€to€lookĻat€where€you€think€the€percentage€might€be€questionable.€€The€first€control€device€is€usually€anĻESP€and€it€is€usually€only€taking€around€30€to€35€percent.€€So,€there€is€still€sufficient€material€forĻthat€second€control€device€to€see€for€that€percentage€to€be€reasonable.ĢĢTom€Natan:€And,€Iššm€curious€why€you€didnššt€at€least€do€a€few€overall€material€balances€just€toĻsee.€€My€experience€with€TRI€emissions€of€all€kinds€is€that€the€data€vastly€improve,€even€whenĻthey€are€monitored,€when€you€try€to€account€for€all€of€the€material.€€Do€you€have€any€plans€toĻactually€do€some€materials€balance€to€make€sure€that€you€are€accounted€for€all€of€the€mercury?€€Š h+ø&* Š‡Bill€Maxwell:€I€donššt€believe€that€we€have€any€plans.€€I€know€part€of€the€DOE€program€that€isĻunderway,€I€believe€that€on€at€least€some€of€those€facilities€they€are€doing€material€balances.€ĻRemember€this€program€was€set€up€in€1998,€so€it€was€three€years€ago,€times€were€a€little€bitĻdifferent.€€We€did€consider€material€balance,€but€felt€that€we€were€mixing€and€matching€too€manyĻdifferent€control€or€test€methods€at€that€time,€plus€the€levels€that€we€were€likely€to€find€in€some€ofĻthe€ash€streams€were€pretty€low€or€expected€to€be€low.€€We€felt€that€that€would€be€introducingĻtoo€much,€too€many€more€levels€of€variability€and€so€we€stuck€with€the€coal€and€the€stack€gas.€€ĢĢSam€Wolfe:€Bill,€youššd€shown€a€slide€with€the€distribution€of€coefficients€of€variation€fitting€anĻexpected€theoretical€curve€and€based€on€that€you€had€said€that€you€did€not€throw€out€any€of€theĻdata€with€the€high€CVššs€because€they€fit€the€curve.€€And€what€I€was€wondering,€fitting€the€curveĻsuggests€to€me€that€the€data€as€a€whole,€that€fitting€the€curve€seems€to€validate€the€data€as€aĻwhole,€but€it€still€seems€that€there€are€data€points€with€high€CVššs€that€may€be€potentially€ought€toĻbe€considered€for€getting€thrown€out€even€though€they€fit€the€curve.ĢĢBill€Maxwell:€That€may€be.€€I€mean€we€have€looked€at€it.€€We€have€been€very€careful€not€to€throwĻout€any€data,€arbitrarily,€capriciously,€whatever€adjectives€that€you€want€to€throw€on.€€We€haveĻdone€our€analyses€and€presented€it€and€then€itššs€the€second€half€of€this€meeting€is€for€yourĻdiscussion€as€to€whether€or€not,€whether€you€feel€it€is€adequate.ĢĢSam€Wolfe:€€Iššd€hate€to€be€making€any€strong€recommendation€based€on€what€I€can€scrapeĻtogether€from€college€statistics€but€Iššm€just€wondering€if€thatššs€something€that€some€judgementĻcan€be€reserved€about€whether€some€of€those€data€points€really€are€outliers€that€shouldnššt€beĻfactored€into€the€mix.ĢĢJohn€Paul:€€And€I€think€itššs€important€to€put€this€all€into€perspective.€€We€are€doing€questions€andĻwe€are€looking€at€this,€but€the€bottom€line€is€going€to€be€do€we€have€sufficient€data€and€are€theĻdata€good€and€so...ĢĢMartha€Keating:€Bill,€on€the€non„mercury€HAP€data,€has€that€been€summarized€in€a€data€set€or€areĻthey€still€just€all€the€humongous€test€reports€on€the€web?ĢĢBill€Maxwell:€It€has€only€been€summarized€to€the€extent€that€it€was€summarized€in€the€FinalĻReport€to€Congress€and€in€the€test€reports€that€are€in€the€docket.ĢĢMartha€Keating:€Do€you€have€any€plans€to€put€into€more€user„friendly€format?ĢĢBill€Maxwell:€We€can€do€whatever.€€The€summaries€are€in€the€Report€to€Congress,€which€are€inĻtabular€form€and€thatššs€fairly€user€friendly.ĢĢMartha€Keating:€That€is€not€a€boiler€specific€that€is€for€the€whole€52€or€so€tests,€right?ĢĢBill€Maxwell:€Right.Š h+ø&* Š‡John€Paul:€Yeah,€we€can€pull€that€out€and€maybe€have€a€discussion€of€that€at€our€next€meeting.ĢĢMartha€Keating:€Okay,€thanks.€€ĢĢJim€Pew:€On€the€issue€of€where€EPA€has€done€the€testing,€I€think€I€understand€that€EPA€hasĻtested€control€equipment,€that€is€before€and€after€a€specific€piece€of€equipment.€€My€question€isĻdoes€EPA€have€data,€the€total€emissions€data€for€particular€sources?€€Can€it€identify€the€actualĻperformance€of€the€sources€say€that€have€three€pieces€of€control€equipment€in€sequence€so€thatĻthey€can€say€that€š!š€for€instance,€one€of€those€individual€sources€is€performing€at€a€certain€level?ĢĢBill€Maxwell:€I€think€that€we€have€that€information€only€for€one€facility.ĢĢJim€Pew:€Do€you€plan€to€get€information€so€that€you€can€tell€how€sources€are€actuallyĻperforming?ĢĢBill€Maxwell:€No.ĢĢJim€Pew:€Are€you€familiar€with€the€case€law€that€says€ņņ??óó€have€to€reflect€the€sourceššs€actualŠ \¬ Šperformance?ĢĢBill€Maxwell:€The€current€DOE€program€may€be€getting€some€of€that€information€on€the€wholeĻfacility.ĢĢJohn€Pew:€But€we€hear€the€question,€the€questionššs€pretty€clear.ĢĢFelice€Stadler:€It€is€probably€kind€of€related€to€Jimššs€question,€do€you€š!š€I€guess€I€have€a€couple€ofĻdifferent€things.€€One€is€for€the€86€tests,€do€you€have€a,€just€for€those€86€tests,€do€you€have€a€tableĻthat€gives€us€not€just€the€percent€reduction,€but€some€kind€of€emission€rate€or€what€theĻperformance€was€at€those€86€units,€kind€of€from€the€best€performers€to€the€least€performers,€allĻ86,€not€this€is€what€we€got€percent€reduction€for€this€boiler€within€this€category?€€Just€again,€aĻtable€that€lists€all€of€them€so€that€we€get€a€clear€sense€as€to€what€units€are€performing€the€best.€€IĻmean€think€this€kind€of€ties€to€the€š!š€I€came€up€with€this€question€after€all€of€this€discussion€aboutĻwhere€we€tested€and€what€control€device€gets€us€what€types€of€reductions€and€the€MACT€isĻsupposed€to€be€based€on€best€performance€and€while€it€is€very€important€to€know€what€controlĻdevices€get€you€to€that€performance,€ultimately,€what€we€need€to€look€at€is€who€are€the€bestĻperformers€and€then€we€can€back€up€and€we€can€see,€oh€this€boiler€had€this,€this,€and€this€installed.€ĻThis€one€actually€did€something€different€at€their€boiler.€€There€might€be€a€whole€host€of€factorsĻthat€effect€the€performance€at€a€boiler€and€I€guess€I€would€like€to€see€us€kind€of€take€a€step€backĻand€see€what€the€best€performers€are€and€then€get€a€better€sense€as€to€why€they€are€getting€to€thatĻlevel.ĢĢBill€Maxwell:€If€that€data€is€not€already€on€there,€we€can€put€it€on.€€We€posted€all€of€the€testĻreport€data.€€Now€whether€or€not€it€is€sortable,€Iššm€not€sure€what€format,€yeah,€you€can€take€theŠ h+ø&* Š86...ĢĢFelice€Maxwell:€My€question€is€have€you€done€that.€€Have€you€looked€at€what€are€best€performersĻor€are€looking€at€something€besides€percent€reduction?€€Have€you€looked€at€hereššs€the€emissionĻrate.€€Boiler€A€has€this€emission€rate€and€Boiler€Z€has€this€emission€rate.ĢĢBill€Maxwell:€Weššve€started€looking€at€that.ĢĢFelice€Stadler:€I€think€that€would€be€really€helpful.€I€know€a€lot€of€that€is€in€the€database€on€theĻweb,€but€it€is€a€very€large€database€and€it€would€be€really€helpful€if€š!š€and€I€also€think€it€is€veryĻimportant€to€have€š!š€to€do€those€kinds€of€analyses€when€weššre€looking€at€floor€calculations.€€ThatĻis€what€the€floor€calculations...ĢĢBill€Maxwell:€But€you€are€jumping€ahead.€€Understand€that€if€we€go€ahead€and€do€that€and€you€allĻdecide€that€half€of€the€data€is€no€good,€then€we€are€a€chicken€and€egg€type€of€thing.€€We€are€tryingĻto€decide€whether€the€data€are€adequate€before€we€go€too€far€down€the€path€of€trying€to€decideĻwhere€to€go€with€it.€€If€we€come€up€with€a€MACT€floor,€then€you€all€are€going€to€ask€why€are€youĻhere.€€Do€you€understand€what€I€am€saying?ĢĢFelice€Stadler:€Well,€I€am€sure€that€you€have€already€been€doing€some€of€these€calculations.ĢĢBill:€Weššve€started€š!š€youššve€probably€started,€Iššm€sure€everybody€has€started€looking€at€variousĻaspects€of€it.ĢĢFelice€Stadler:€Can€I€then€just€ask€a€follow„up€question,€if€the€work€group€decides€that€the€dataĻare€not€good€what€additional€plans€are€there€to€š!š€or€do€you€have€additional€plans€to€get€additionalĻdata€rather€than€saying,€yeah,€I€started€data,€either€good€or€bad,€are€there€additional€plans€to€getĻmore€data?ĢĢBill€Maxwell:€I€would€I€guess€defer€to€John€and€Sally,€but€if€they€group€thinks€it€is€not€adequate,€IĻwould€hope€the€group€would€come€up€with€ideas€on€how€to€make€it€adequate.€€It€was€pointed€outĻthat€we€do€have€more€data€on€total€systems,€spray€dryer/fabric€filters,€you€canššt€test€betweenĻthem,€so€you€get€the€whole€system.€€Units€that€only€have€ESPššs,€thatššs€basically€the€whole€facility.€ĻIt€is€really€the€only€situations€where€you€have€some€type€of€wet€scrubber€preceded€by€a€dry€thatĻwe€donššt€have€the€whole€system.ĢĢJohn€Paul:€We€do€have€86€stack€tests.€€So,€we€do€have€an€outlet€emission€rate€for€each€one€ofĻthose.ĢĢBill€Maxwell:€That€is€correct.ĢĢJohn€Paul:€I€would€assume€for€each€one€of€those€also,€that€corresponding€to€the€stack€test,€youĻwould€have€the€coal€data.Š h+ø&* Š‡Bill€Maxwell:€That€is€correct.ĢĢJohn€Paul:€So,€you€would€have€the€mercury€thatššs€in€coal€for€the€stack€test.€€You€would€have€theĻoutlet€concentration€for€the€stack€test.€€You€would€have€the€operating€parameters€for€the€boilersĻduring€the€stack€test.€€And€I€guess€that€is€a€pretty€important€question€to€me,€if€you,€at€our€agency,Ļif€you€have€86€stack€tests€with€that€data,€then€weššd€want€to€look€at€that€data€and€do€a€lot€ofĻdifferent€things€with€data€and€make€sure€that€the€data€is€quality€assured,€but€I€would€be€prettyĻhard€pressed€to€try€to€figure€out€why€that€is€not€adequate.€€That€is€a€lot€of€data.ĢĢPraveen€Amar:€Thank€you.€€Bill,€I€got€a€number€of€questions.€€First,€the€description€that€you€hadĻtoday.€€Do€you€have€a€report€at€this€time,€a€written€report€describing,€or€are€you€planning€to€haveĻone?ĢĢBill€Maxwell:€We€will€ultimately€have€a€report.€€We€do€not€have€one€at€this€time.€€I€mean€it€will€beĻthe€support€documentation€for€the€standard.ĢĢPraveen€Amar:€Also,€the€Office€of€Research€and€Development€EPA,€they€have€š!š€they€areĻpreparing€a€report€on€mercury€control€technology?ĢĢBill€Maxwell:€I€believe€so.ĢĢPraveen€Amar:€So,€is€that€the€report€that€you€are€going€to€be€doing€or€is€that€going€to€be€aĻseparate€report?ĢĢBill€Maxwell:€That€is€a€separate€report.ĢĢPraveen€Amar:€Other€question€that€I€have,€you€mentioned€a€number€of€times,€the€word€categories,Ļhow€you€chose€you€boilers,€categories€based€on€this€and€not€based€on€that.€€Is€that€the€sameĻmeaning€as€subcategory€in€the€Clean€Air€Act€down€the€road?ĢĢBill€Maxwell:€NoĢĢPraveen€Amar:€Not€at€all?ĢĢBill€Maxwell:€No,€not€at€all.ĢĢPraveen€Amar:€Will€that€become€a€basis€though€somehow,€the€control€equipment,€age?ĢĢBill€Maxwell:€Not€necessarily,€potentially,€you€know,€but€no€that€is€not€how€they€were€š!š€that€isĻnot€what€they€were€intended€to€be.€€They€were€set€up€so€that€we€could€up€with€a€nationalĻemission€estimate€in€the€most€reasonable€way€that€we€thought.ĢĢPraveen€Amar:€Okay,€so€the€details€of€the€80€tests,€the€volunteers,€and€the€ones€that€you€chose,Š h+ø&* Šdo€you€have€details€like€how€many€had€cold„sided€ESPššs€and€hot„side€ESPššs€and€baghouses€andĻso€on?€€Would€that€become€available€to€check€for€example,€you€got€1,100€boilers€and€youĻselected€80€and€the€question€obviously€becomes€and€I€think€you€already€have€the€conclusion€here,Ļbased€on€what€you€think€that€the€data€in€the€coal€and€the€data€in€stack,€you€think€these€data€areĻsufficient€to€go€forward€with€the€MACT€process?ĢĢBill€Maxwell:€I€think€that€we€already€have€that€either€on€the€web€or€certainly€available.ĢĢJohn€Paul:€We€do€have€that.€€The€controlled€mercury€emissions€from€coal„fired€utility€boilers,€oneĻof€the...ĢĢPraveen:€Jim€Kilgroeššs€presentations...ĢĢJohn€Paul:€Yeah,€I€think€that€covers€it€pretty€good.ĢĢPraveen€Amar:€And€one€other€question€and€I€want€to€be€clear.€€There€are€two€words,€variabilityĻand€uncertainty.€€I€think€you€have€used€the€word€variability€quite€often,€variability€in€coal€ofĻmercury€and€variability€of€mercury€in€stack€gases€and€I€am€looking€at€all€of€these€28,000€largeĻsamples€that€you€tested€for€coal€and€80€boilers.€€Are€you€comfortable€at€this€time€based€on€whatĻyou€have€shown€us,€three€tests€for€stacks,€I€guess,€and€then€many,€many€tests€for€mercury€in€coalĻthat€you€have€captured€the€variability?€€Which€is€not€the€same€thing€as€uncertainty,€I€want€to€beĻclear.€€See,€uncertainty€is€the€property€of€the€beholder€and€the€variability€is€the€property€of€theĻsystem.€€If€you€are€able€to€figure€out€variability€then€it€is€not€uncertain,€itššs€simply€variable.€€Am€IĻmaking€myself€reasonable?ĢĢBill€Maxwell:€Yeah,€you€are€talking€to€a€non„statistician.ĢĢPraveen€Amar:€I€am€too,€an€non„statistician.ĢĢBill€Maxwell:€I€think€we€are€comfortable€that€the€data€are€good.€€The€coal€data€certainly€and€weĻhave€no€reason€at€this€time€to€not€believe€that€the€stack€test€data€arenššt€good.ĢĢPraveen€Amar:€Then€one€quick€question,€Iššm€looking€that€you€have€28,000€samples€of€bituminousĻcoals€and€about€8,000€samples€of€subbituminous€coals.€€Now,€in€this€country€you€are€burningĻmore€or€less€50/50€percent€of€each€of€them.€€So,€I€am€wondering€why€so€many€more€samples€ofĻbituminous€versus€subbituminous?ĢĢBill€Maxwell:€To€some€extent€I€believe€thatššs...€€We€required€every€sixth€shipment,€many€of€the€š!šĻwell,€many,€a€good€number€of€„„€plants€received€their€bituminous€coal€by€truck€and€so€we€said€Ļwhatever€you€receive€in€a€24€hour€day€is€a€shipment,€so€thereššs€a€lot€of€truck€samples€in€there.€ĻItššs€not€directly€related€to€tonnage.€€Itššs€loosely€related,€but€I€think€that€is€why€you€get€moreĻbituminous€samples€because€thereššs€lot€of€truck€shipments.ĢŠ h+ø&* ŠPraveen€Amar:€Thank€you.ĢĢJohn€Paul:€I€donššt€think€itššs€50€percent€either.€€Itššs€52€percent€bituminous€and€then€it€is€someĻother€percent€and€then€there€is€lignite€also.ĢĢBill€Maxwell:€About€40€percent€and€then€8€percent€lignite.€€ĢĢJohn€Paul:€Right,€so€itššs€not€quite.ĢĢMike€Rossler:€Okay,€the€question€Iššve€got€is€the€graph€that€you€put€up€on€the€board€talked€aboutĻthe€quality€of€the€data€with€regards€to€the€coefficient€of€variation€which€if€I€understand€that,€thatššsĻkind€of€a€measure€of€how€close€and€how€tight€the€three€sample€runs€were€on€that€particular€stackĻtest.€€The€question€Iššve€got€is€how€would€that€relate€to€those€tests€being€representative€of€theĻoverall€operation€of€the€station?€€Very€often,€when€we€conducted€these€tests€they€were€at€a€steadyĻload,€at€a€one€fixed€load,€but€thatššs€not€necessarily€how€the€station€would€normally€operate€on€aĻday„to„day€basis.€€Do€you€have€any€further€information€about€that?ĢĢBill€Maxwell:€Not€specifically.€€That€is€another€issue€„„€the€long€term€performance€and€we€haveĻwork€underway€on€continuous€emission€monitors€to€try€and€see€whether€or€not€they€can€beĻperfected€and€then€to€get€long„term€data.€€But€youššre€right,€these€tests€are€like€all€other€stackĻtests,€theyššre€a€snapshot€in€time.ĢĢPat€Raher:€Bill,€itššs€going€back€to€what€Mike€was€just€asking€a€little€bit€when€you€say€a€snapshotĻin€time.€€You€have€a€lot€of€coal€data€and€you€can€see€through€all€kinds€of€mixed€shipments€andĻeverything,€the€variability€as€Praveen€was€talking€about€in€the€coal€data.€€Now€you€come€over€andĻyou€do€three€tests€at€each€one€of€these€units.€€Have€you€looked€at€whether€or€not€those€tests€areĻfalling€on€the€average€of€the€chlorine,€mercury,€all€the€other€parameters€or€whether€or€not€theyĻactually€were€š!š€you€have€a€representative€sample€of€the€number€of€times€the€worst€combination€ofĻthose€happen€to€hit€a€boiler€or€the€best€combination€of€those€happen€to€hit€a€boiler€and€whatĻimpact,€if€any,€that€has€on€the€control€equipment?ĢĢBill€Maxwell:€Are€you€asking€whether€or€not€a€specific€plant€was€tested€and€they€were€using€theĻhighest€mercury€content€coal€or€the€lowest,€or€whether€their€coal...is€that...?ĢĢPat€Raher:€Well,€you€have€all€of€the€coal€samples€and€one€of€your€slides€talks€about€the€variabilityĻboth€in€testing€and€in€the€coal,€the€characteristics€of€the€coal,€the€speciation€of€the€coal.€€Now,€IĻsee€this€curve€and€I€thought€what€that€curve€was€telling€me€until€Mike€and€others€were€talkingĻabout€it€is€that€you€sort€of€caught€all€of€the€various€combinations.€€Iššm€not€sure€thatššs€the€caseĻnow,€and€I€am€wondering,€your€coal€data€is€probably€going€to€show€that€a€certain€mixture€of€coalĻthat€any€one€or€a€large€number€of€facilities€could€receive€in€one€day,€or€burn€in€one€day,€letššs€put€itĻthat€way,€could€have€a€very€bad€combination€or€a€very€high€combination€of€chlorine€or€mercury€orĻcombination€of€the€two,€or€whatever,€but€that€may€not€be€the€coal€you€tested€on€the€three€daysĻwhere€you€got€your€snapshot,€and€so,€I€guess€the€question€Iššm€trying€to€get€across€is,€when€youŠ h+ø&* Štook€those€snapshots,€are€you€able€to€go€back€and€look€at€the€coal€that€was€burned€to€say€š šweĻactually€tested€and€we€know€what€this€control€equipment€will€do€if€you€get€a€bad€batchšš€because€IĻdonššt€think€these€guys€have€a€lot€of€control€over€this€mixture€thatššs€coming€in€with€trucks€andĻtrains€and€everything€else.ĢĢBill€Maxwell:€Okay,€we€do€have€the€data.€€I€think€we€have€looked€at€it€to€some€extent.€€Not€goingĻto€see€whether€it€is€the€worst.€€We€donššt€see€that€there€is€a€great€of€variability,€particularly€notĻwhat€you€are€used€to€with€sulfur€content€for€example.€€That€the€mercury€doesnššt€vary€that€much.€ĻYes,€there€are€high€coals€and€low€coals€but€they€donššt€tend€to€come€into€the€same€plant€at€theĻsame€time.ĢĢJim€Kilgroe:€Yeah,€one€of€the€problems€that€we€have€is€that€there€is€not€enough,€I€guess,€data€onĻthe€emission€testing€to€try€to€š!š€in€a€lot€of€cases€what€we€did€is€we€broke€the€emission€tests€up€intoĻgroups,€which€we€called€coal€combustion€flue€gas€or€control€groups€and€my€feeling€was€that€thoseĻgroups€basically€represented€independent€populations€because€they€had€something€about€the€testsĻthat€was€different€from€another€plant€which€would€say,€okay,€it€is€not€really€the€same€population.€ĻSo€when€we€did€that,€there€is€a€lot€of€the€plants,€essentially€that€represent,€there€was€only€threeĻtests€for€a€basically€a€given€group€and€one€thing€you€canššt€go€back€and€really€take€three€tests€andĻcompare€that€with€whatššs€going€on€before.€€I€think€the€other€factor€is€that€itššs€impossible€to€tellĻfrom€day€to€day€when€they€were€doing€some€testing€down€at€Gaston,€they€found€that€they€hadĻcontinuous€emissions€monitors€on€it€and€the€emissions€would€change€from€day€to€day.€€The€inletĻloading€would€change€from€day„to„day€because€they€were€getting€the€coal€from€a€different€source.€ĻThere€is€just€no€way,€I€think,€in€most€instances€of€going€back€and€tracking€the€data€we€have€forĻthe€individual€plants€versus€what€happened€over€a€yearššs€period€of€time€and€trying€to€place€thatĻparticular€test€in€the€context€of€the€larger€coal€for€the€whole€year.€€Now,€Iššm€not€sure€why€youĻfeel€that€that€is€important.€€I€think€what€is€important€is€to€establish€the€variability€of€the€data€fromĻa€given€plant.€€What€we€need€to€do€is€what€we€have€called€plant„to„plant€variability.€€We€need€toĻestablish€variability€within€the€plant€and€then€once€we€do€that,€we€will€have€a€better€instance€of€anĻidea€of€how€the€emissions€are€varying€over€a€period€of€time.ĢĢPat€Raher:€I€guess,€Jim,€the€reason€I€asked€the€question€is€with€all€of€data,€Iššm€assuming€that€youĻactually€can€look€at€š!š€Iššm€assuming€that€you€looked€what€was€being€burned€that€day€and€have€aĻfeeling€as€to€what€that,€how€that€compares€to€what€was€burned€the€rest€of€the€year€at€that€facilityĻor€month,€or€whatever,€because€you€have€so€much€coal€data.€€But€more€importantly,€you€saidĻexactly€what€I€am€concerned€about.€€You€said,€when€we€look€at€the€data,€we€see€a€variable€inĻterms€of€what€the€loadings€were€on€the€inlet€from€day€to€day.€€Now,€if€we€have€a€bunch€of€dataĻthat€was€generated€that€happened€to€be€„„€and€Iššm€not€saying€it€is,€Iššm€just€saying€we€need€to€testĻthis€data€„„€happens€to€be€at€the€all€the€best,€i.e.,€the€lowest€loadings€at€the€inlet,€Iššm€not€so€sureĻthat€that€tells€us€what€this€technology€will€do.€€I€donššt€know€that€we€can€really€use€it€to€set€theĻfloor€to€see€that€best€12€percent.€€It€seems€to€me€that€if€we€know,€if€the€Agency€knows€that€thereĻis€tremendous€variability,€that€you€have€got€to€account€for€that€saying€we€see€this€technology.€€WeĻcan€look€at€a€technology„based€standard€based€on€what€it€will€do,€or€combinations€of€technologyĻwill€do€with€high€inlet€loadings€because€you€canššt€rule€out€the€fact€and€you€canššt€mandate€that€youŠ h+ø&* Šhave€to€have€a€low€inlet€loading€based€on€your€coal.€€Now,€I€may€be€missing€it,€but€that€was€theĻreason€for€the€question€and€as€to€whether€or€not€the€data€set€allows€you€to€do€that€kind€ofĻanalysis.€€I€would€hope€it€does.ĢĢSally€Shaver:€And€I€think€thatššs€a€fair€question€Pat€and€we€will€look€at€the€data€to€the€extent€weĻcan€and€get€back€to€you€on€that.ĢĢBill€Bumpers:€Itššs€really€sort€of€a€close€follow„up€and€it€goes€back€to€I€think€Feliceššs€questionĻwhich€is€it€seems€to€me€that€if€you€are€going€to€follow€the€DCššs€circuits€opinions,€we€are€going€toĻhave€to€look€at€the€ranking€of€the€best€performing€emission€rates€and€then€start€taking€account€ofĻwhat€causes€those€emission€rates.€€I€donššt€think,€and€I€donššt€know,€but€I€donššt€think€there€is€goingĻto€be€a€lot€of€dispute€as€to€whether€the€outlet€gas€measurements€are€going€to€be€relativelyĻaccurate,€and€so€we€can€start€ranking€them,€which€we€have€to€do,€and€then€figure€out,€and€thisĻgets€to€Patššs€point,€which€is€all€right,€whatššs€responsible€for€the€variability€and€what€accounts€forĻthat€performance€and€I€guess€to€that€end,€I€have€a€separate€question€that€relates€to€it€which€isĻwhen€weššre€looking€at€these€best€performers,€youššve€done€the€speciation€of€the€mercury€and€youĻknow€certain€mercury€species€are€relatively€benign€and€others€quite€virulent,€are€we€looking€at€theĻcontrol€efficiency€for€the€speciated€mercuries€that€we€only€have€concerns€about,€or€are€we€lookingĻat€total€mercury?ĢĢBill€Maxwell:€Primarily€we€are€looking€at€total€mercury,€but€we€have€also€looked€at€the€speciatedĻfractions.ĢĢBill€Bumpers:€Are€we€going€to€š!š€I€mean,€recognizing€that€some€of€the€mercury€species€are€notĻreally,€maybe€they€are€HAP€and€maybe€they€are€not,€I€donššt€know.€€I€guess€right€now€they€seemĻto€be€listed€as€a€mercury€but€are€we€going€to€try€to€figure€out€which€ones€we€care€about?ĢĢBill€Maxwell:€Right€now,€I€believe€that€mercury€and€mercury€compounds€are€listed€as€the€HAPĻand€so€it€is€not€broken€out.€€When€we€say€speciated,€we€are€really€only€talking€ionic€form.€€WeššreĻnot€saying€it€is€mercury€chloride€or€mercuric€oxide€or€anything€else,€it€is€just€mercury€plus€twoĻelemental€and€then€particulate.€€That€is€far€we€can€split€it€out.ĢĢJohn€Shanahan:€Iššm€going€to€torture€you€all€with€another€question.€€Trying€to€get€back€to€what€IĻwas€getting€to€before€and€hopefully€I€will€ask€it€a€little€more€clearly.€€My€understanding€is€that€inĻtalking€to€our€technical€folks€is€that€when€you€test€the€mercury€itself€and€then€you€test€it€usingĻOntario„Hydro€at€the€inlet€you€have€instances€where€the€Ontario„Hydro€has€a€higher€mercuryĻcontent€at€the€inlet€than€you€actually€have€in€the€testing€of€the€coal€itself.€€Is€that€not€accurate?ĢĢBill€Maxwell:€There€is€somewhat€of€a€problem€with€the€Ontario„Hydro€method€at€inlets,€primaryĻinlets,€not€the€inlet€to€a€scrubber,€that€is€following€an€ESP€because€the€sampling€method€itselfĻstarts€behaving€like€a€control€device€in€either€removing€more€or€changing€the€speciation.€€I€donšštĻthink€we€are€making€mercury,€but€at€the€low€levels,€you€do€get€some€anomalous€resultsĻsometimes.Š h+ø&* Š‡John€Shanahan:€And€what€do€you€do€with€those€results€when€you€get€those€anomalous€results?ĢĢBill€Maxwell:€Right€now,€one€of€the€reasons€that€we€are€looking€at€total€because€we€feel€that€totalĻmercury€numbers€are€valid,€not€necessarily€the€individual€species€at€the€inlet.ĢĢJohn€Shanahan:€So,€youššre€not€finding€a€discrepancy€of€total€mercury€at€the€inlet€and€through€theĻtesting€of€coal,€you€are€only€finding€differences€in€the€speciation€mix?€€Is€that€what€you€are€sayingĻor€did€I€just€miss€what€you€said?ĢĢBill€Maxwell:€Well,€I€think€we€have€had€cases€where€it€looks€like€there€are€mercury€being€formed,Ļbut€we€feel€it€is€a€result€of€the€very€low€levels,€sometimes€near€the€detection€limit.€€ĢĢJohn€Shanahan:€When€you€say€mercury€being€formed,€is€there€a€theoretical€model€of€how€mercuryĻwould€be€formed€as€it€goes€through€the€plant€or€is€it€perhaps€that€there€is€something€wrong€withĻthe€methodology€or€the€testing€or€that€particular€data?ĢĢBill€Maxwell:€It€is€fundamental€laws,€you€donššt€make€elements€as€they€move€through€the€š!š€so€itššsĻsomething€in€the€sampling€or€the€analyses€or€just€the€very€low€levels.ĢĢJim€Kilgroe:€Yeah,€but€there€is€a€sense€that€we€believe€that€the€Ontario„Hydro€method€is€probablyĻmore€accurate€than€coal€data€and€so€that€in€some€cases€where€the€coal,€in€the€cases€there€is€aĻlower€level€than€of€mercury€than€the€outlet€with€the€stack€sampling,€then€we€think€it€is€probablyĻbecause€the€inlet€data€is€not€very€accurate.€€In€other€cases,€we€have€seen€tests€before€where€youĻactually€get€higher€outlets€and€inlets€and€that€happens€because€if€you€get€a€say,€perhaps€aĻtemperature€change€in€the€unit€then€you€can€get€desorption€of€mercury€off€of€the€walls€and€getĻdesorption€of€the€mercury€out€of€collected€particulate€matter€so€that€the€outlet€is€actually€higherĻthan€the€inlet€and€thatššs€been€noted€for€a€number€of€different€years€on€a€number€of€different€typesĻof€combustion€systems.€€So€the€data€is€real.ĢĢMike€Rossler:€I€think€that€the€point€I€wanted€to€go€ahead€and€make€and€this€is€maybe€a€little€bit€ofĻfollow„on€to€John€is€that€youššre€right,€matter€is€neither€created€nor€destroyed,€but€it€can€beĻaccumulated€and€I€think€in€some€of€the€testing€that€weššve€seen€that€there€has€been€a€propensityĻthat€you€might€have€some€type€of€accumulation€mechanism€in€an€air€heater€where€if€you€have€it€onĻload,€it€heats€up€and€then€you€do€see€that€desorption€and€then€all€of€sudden€magically€what€youĻare€seeing€during€that€particular€stack€test€shows€that€you€have€much€higher€mercury€than€whatĻwas€in€the€coal€but€you€are€just€seeing€more€of€it€in€one€given€time€and,€also,€itššs€a€bit€of€aĻfunction€that€you€have€different€coals,€you€have€different€chemistries,€you€have€differentĻspeciations€and€that€speciation€changes€as€a€function€of€other€parameters€in€the€coal€which€thenĻwould€then€cause€different€amounts€of€control€in,€say,€an€ESP€or€a€wet€scrubber€and€I€guess€thatššsĻkind€of€more€of€the€thing€that€I€was€alluding€too€earlier,€that€you€have€to€maybe€take€a€little€bitĻmore€of€a€holistic,€longer„term€view€of€what€is€actually€going€on€in€the€unit.ĢĢLee€Zeugin:€Let€me€basically€follow„up€with€that€question€that€I€think€follows€from€a€number€ofŠ h+ø&* Šearlier€questioners.€€I€certainly€agree€that€the€biggest€problem€that€I€see€with€the€stack€samplingĻdata€is€itššs€only€a€snapshot.€€It€doesnššt€begin€to€answer€the€question€š šwhatššs€the€variability€ofĻmercury€emissions€at€even€a€given€plant,€pick€even€the€best€plant,€over€the€course€of€a€year.šš€€ItĻseems€to€me€one€way€to€get€at€it€may€well€be€looking€at€the€coal€data,€see€if€there€is€somethingĻthat€we€can€do€there.€€The€other€way€to€do€it€would€certainly€be€to€measure€over€a€long€period€ofĻtime€at€a€plant€and€see€what€that€variability€really€is.€€But€it€also€seems€to€me€that€one€of€theĻcritical€questions€is€š šdo€we€have€enough€data€to€predict€the€species€of€mercury€that€are€beingĻcreated€in€a€given€boiler€burning€a€given€type€of€coalšš€and€so€Bill,€I€guess€the€question€I€had€forĻyou€is€š šdo€you€believe€that€there€is€sufficient€data€in€a€stack€sampling€data€to€actually€predictĻmercury€speciation€at€a€given€plant€burning€a€given€coal,šš€which€seems€to€me€a€fairly€fundamentalĻquestion€and€then€answering€š šwhat€do€the€control€devices€remove€and€whatššs€the€likely€outcomeĻfor€that€plant?ššĢĢBill€Maxwell:€You€wanted€me€to€predict€what€is€going€to€come€out€of€the€plant,€huh?ĢĢLee€Zeugin:€Predict€the€species€that€are€being€created,€yes.ĢĢJim€Kilgroe:€Bill,€could€I€jump€on€that€one?€€Really€that€is€the,€I€guess,€what€we€are€trying€to€doĻwith€the€control€technology€program€that€EPA,€Department€of€Energy,€and€EPRI€are€all€runningĻtogether.€€Right€now,€we€canššt€predict€what€is€going€to€be€happening€because€we€donššt€haveĻenough€long„term€data.€€We€are€trying€to€develop€models€to€try€to€characterize€those€factors€thatĻinfluence€emission€and€speciation€of€mercury€and€we€are€trying€to€get€out€in€the€field.€€Weššve€gotĻa€big€push€on€with€the€CEMššs€right€now€and€weššre€going€to€try€to€get€out€in€the€field€and€getĻadditional€data€at€a€number€of€different€plants€so€we€can€some€sense€of€how€much€variability€thereĻis€in€the€emissions.€€Weššve€got€some€fairly€good€idea€right€now€about€what€causes€the€speciationĻto€change€for€a€given€plant.€€So,€what€we€are€doing€is,€we€donššt€know€now,€but€it€is€our€intent€toĻtry€to€know€by€the€time€the€Agency€has€to€make€a€decision.ĢĢBill€Becker:€I€wanted€to€the€follow„up€on€a€point€that€Felice€made€earlier€about€the€fact,€theĻbottom€line€is€we€would€like€to€know€who€are€the€best€performers€and€then€we€can€kind€of€workĻbackwards€and€talk€about€the€technologies€and€variability€and€everything€else€and€I€wasnššt€quiteĻsure€I€heard€a€commitment€from€EPA€that€they€would€help€this€group€better€understand€who€theĻbest€performers€and€so€Iššd€like€to€reaffirm€her€request€for€this€information€to€be€provided€at€theĻnext€meeting€so€that€we€can€š!š€those€of€us€that€donššt€have€readily€the€data€available€or€arenššt€inĻthis€business€full„time€looking€at€that€data,€that€EPA€could€help€us€out€in€arraying€it€so€that€weĻcan€then€make€better€decisions€with€regard€to€the€other€issues€we€are€talking€about.ĢĢSally€Shaver:€I€think,€Bill,€we€plan€to€do€that€in€whatever€format,€back€to€Bill€Maxwellššs€responseĻearlier.€€The€purpose€of€today€and€this€first€phase€of€the€group€is€too€look€at€the€data€and€getĻinput€on€that,€are€the€data€adequate,€are€they€sufficient,€and€seek€your€comments€on€that€beforeĻwe€move€forward€because€thatššs€basically€the€fundamental€aspect€of€setting€a€floor€and€part€of€theĻanalysis€that€goes€into€that,€so,€yes€that€will€be€provided€at€the€appropriate€point.ĢŠ h+ø&* ŠJohn€Paul:€And€if€I€could€just€add€to€that.€€Iššve€been€making€a€list€of€things€and€I€think€that€one€ofĻthe€things€we€will€want€to€do€at€the€end€of€this€meeting€is€discuss€maybe€what€the€overallĻquestions€are€that€remain€on€the€data€after€this€discussion€and€then€seek€from€the€groupĻsuggestions€on€what€we€can€do€collectively,€or€EPA,€to€answer€those€questions€and€then€discussĻamongst€us€all€and€get€feedback€from€EPA€as€to€whether€or€not€that€would€be€sufficient.€ĻObviously,€the€big€thing€we€want€to€do€is€figure€out€what€the€questions€are€and€what€analysis€canĻsolve€those€questions€and,€of€course,€the€key€thing€is€to€try€to€identify€those€questions€early€and€ifĻwe€can€identify€them€at€this€meeting€that€would€be€great,€but€we€also€realize€that€people€will€wantĻto€go€back€and€look€at€the€data€and€have€a€second€chance€to€come€back€and€say,€hey,€here€is€aĻfurther€question€and€I€think€thatššs€maybe€one€of€the€things€that€we€will€try€to€do€at€our€nextĻmeeting,€also,€but€to€the€extent€that€we€can€identify€the€questions€and€agree€on€how€we€canĻanswer€those€questions,€we€want€to€do€that€at€his€meeting.ĢĢPeter€Jonker:€I€wanted€to€make€a€comment€about€some€of€the€terminology€thatššs€being€used.€€IššveĻheard€a€lot€of€talk€in€references€to€accuracy€and€I€just€wanted€to€say€that€accuracy,€in€and€of€itself,Ļmay€not€mean€a€whole€lot€because€you€may€be€very€accurate€and€you€may€be€dead€wrong€aboutĻyour€numbers.€€What€you€need€is€not€only€accuracy,€but€you€need€precision€and€if€we€are€talkingĻabout€very€low€levels€of€anything,€which€we€are€with€this€particular€pollutant€as€with€many€others,Ļwe€need€both€accuracy€and€precision.ĢĢJohn€Paul:€I€think€Bill€agrees.ĢĢTom€Natan:€I€just€wanted€to€get€back€to€the€point€of€looking€at€the€range€performers.€€It€seemsĻthat€there€isnššt€that€much€stack€data€here€and€I€honestly€donššt€know€that€we€can€evaluate€howĻgood€those€data€are€until€we€see€it€arrayed€that€way.€€Thatššs€going€to€point€out€to€us€I€think€moreĻwhere€the€holes€are€in€the€data€than€a€lot€of€the€questions€we€have€here.€€What€is€the€result€thatĻcomes€from€those€data€if€it€doesnššt€appear€to€cover€the€range€of€conditions€that€weššd€be€likely€toĻfind€then€we€know€itššs€not€good€enough,€but€I€canššt€tell€right€now.€€I€mean€there€has€been€a€lot€ofĻquestions€and€a€lot€of€good€questions€but€until€we€see€the€results€like€that€I€honestly€donššt€knowĻhow€much€more€we€can€do.€€I€mean€there€are€certainly€other€questions€that€have€been€asked€thatĻyou€could€answer€and€see€if€they€would€make€a€difference€in€the€end€but€I€would€like€to€secondĻthe€other€people€who€said€weššd€like€to€see€the€results€and€then€we€can€perhaps€determine€whetherĻthe€data€are€adequate€or€not.ĢĢ?:€Following€up€on€that,€a€lot€of€the€initial€question€with€the€data€was€really€is€it€sufficient€to€moveĻforward€and€I€think€weššre€hearing€pretty€clearly€that€there€is€a€lot€of€uncertainties€and€weššve€beenĻtalking€about€it€in€qualitative€fashion€here€but€I€think€it€would€be€helpful€if€we€could€try€to€see€aĻpresentation€of€the€data€cut€in€that€way€to€start€saying€looking€at€some€similar€plants€that€haveĻsimilar€controls,€hereššs€some€variation€that€weššre€seeing€and€hereššs€some€of€the€possibleĻdifferences€of€why€those€differences€may€be€there€starting€to€at€least€qualitative€say€what€are€theĻuncertainties€and€maybe€what€appears€to€be€with€the€current€the€greater€uncertainties€versus€theĻlesser€uncertainties€in€the€kind€of€differences€weššre€starting€to€see€and€the€reason€Iššm€saying€thatĻmight€be€helpful€is€then€if€at€the€same€time€if€we€could€also€see€maybe€a€clearer€plan€of€we€haveŠ h+ø&* Šheard€a€lot€about€other€studies€that€have€gotten€underway€with€EPA€and€DOE€and€I€donššt€know€ifĻyet€we€have€really€had€a€clear€time€line€put€together€of€exactly€what€studies€are€being€done,€soĻthen€we€can€see€how€those€tests€are€being€set€up€and€are€they€set€up€at€this€time€to€actually€get€atĻsome€of€those€uncertainties.€€Can€we€six€months€from€now€expect€to€see€a€little€bit€more€dataĻcoming€in€to€what€are€being€identified€perhaps€as€some€of€the€key€variables€right€now€or€maybeĻthose€tests€arenššt€even€being€designed€to€really€get€at€them€and€it€may€well€be.€€I€just€donššt€knowĻif€I€have€seen€the€data€that€kind€of€š!š€or€some€road€maps€I€guess€that€kind€of€take€a€look€at€theĻdata€that€we€have€and€what€weššre€in€line€to€get€over€the€next€six€months€or€so.ĢĢSally€Shaver:€We€gave€that€presentation€at€the€first€meeting,€and€so€if€you€want€to€go€back€andĻlook€at€that€and€then€if€youššve€still€got€questions€about€that,€if€you€could€call€Bill€directly,€okay?ĢĢ?:€But€in€tying€it€with€ongoing€research,€I€guess€I€havenššt€had€a€good€sense€of€what€is€underway€atĻthis€time€and€at€that€time,€I€donššt€think€weššve€seen€that€presentation€yet.ĢĢSally€Shaver:€Well,€that€was€a€part€of€that€presentation.€€So,€if€you€go€back€and€look€at€that,€orĻweššll€pull€out€for€you€and€maybe€you€and€Bill€can€talk.ĢĢJim€Kilgroe:€The€ongoing€research€is€being€done€by€ORD€and€I€guess€we€are€about€ready€toĻpublish€a€report€on€the€control€technology€and€evaluation€of€the€ICR€data€in€that€report.€€It€isĻgoing€to€be€available€sometime€in€November€or€December€and€it€will€contain€a€whole€chapterĻabout€the€ICR€data€and€itššs€probably€at€the€present€time€about€500€pages€in€length.€€So€there€is€aĻlot€of€information€out€there.ĢĢJohn€Paul:€Okay,€maybe€once€that€report€is€available€we€can€let€the€work€group€know€of€itsĻavailability.ĢĢFelice€Stadler:€I€was€curious€whether€any€of€the€companies€are€planning€some€more€longer€termĻtesting€because€I€think€several€of€you€have€mentioned€that€it€is€important€to€take€a€longer€termĻview€and€not€just€rely€on€these€snapshots.€€Right€now,€all€we€have€are€the€snapshots€and€IššmĻcurious€whether€any€companies€right€now€are€doing€some€ongoing€tests?€€Whether€itššs€CEMĻtechnology€thatššs€being€tested€or€youššre€just€doing€Ontario„Hydro€on€a€more€regular€basis€andĻthis€is€independent€of€the€projects€that€DOE€has€planned€because€a€lot€of€those€are€looking€at€newĻcontrol€technologies€that€are€being€installed,€so€Iššm€just€curious€on€the€monitoring,€if€there€are€anyĻplans€and,€if€so,€if€we€can€then€pull€those€into€the€86€tests?ĢĢLee€Zeugin:€I€guess€Iššve€heard€the€desire€of€a€number€of€people€to€rank€the€plants€already.€€I€thinkĻitššs€premature€and€the€reason€for€that€is€that€if€you€donššt€get€at€the€issue€of€how€does€one€convertĻa€snapshot€in€time€to€a€longer€term€performance,€itššs€unclear€to€me€how€you€even€define€what€theĻbest€plan€is.€€I€can€certainly€go€in€and€look€at€the€86€plants€and€say€okay,€this€one€had€the€lowestĻstack€emissions€but€it€doesnššt€necessarily€answer€the€question€whether€that€plant€has€the€lowestĻstack€emissions€over€the€course€of€a€year€such€that€it€would€be€the€lowest€standard€and€withoutĻthat€information,€I€donššt€see€what€the€value€is€of€ranking€plants€at€this€point.Š h+ø&* Š‡Larry€Monroe:€I€wanted€to€sort€of€give€an€industry€view€on€the€adequacy€of€the€data,€raise€severalĻpoints€about€the€data€itself.€€Bill,€your€talk,€the€last€slide,€you€make€a€theoretical€argument€basedĻon€the€distribution€and€then€jump€right€to€a€sufficiency€argument,€I€just€wanted€to€say€I€donššt€seeĻthat.€€If€I€take€almost€anything€in€nature€and€take€a€sample€of€it,€Iššll€get€sort€of€a€log„normalĻdistribution.€€If€I€take€a€single€plant€and€take€repeated€samples€of€its€mercury,€I€would€get€a€log„¼normal€distribution,€so€that€you€would€expect€to€get€that€sort€of€behavior€anyway€from€as€long€asĻyou€take€enough€samples.€€The€problem€comes€from€the€need€for€long„term€performance€of€that.€ĻJim€Kilgroe€of€EPA€mentioned€the€test€at€my€plant€where€over€seven€days€we€saw€the€inletĻmercury€change€over€a€factor€of€five.€€Thatššs€a€sister€unit€to€one€of€the€ICR€tests.€€We€sawĻnumbers€equal€to€the€ICR€data.€€We€saw€some€lower€numbers.€€We€saw€some€much€higherĻnumbers€there.€€So,€just€over€seven€days€we€saw€an€extreme€amount€of€variability€at€that€plant.€ĻDoes€have€varied€coal€supplies,€you€would€kind€of€expect€that.€€And€so€that€variability€thatššsĻdriven€by€the€coal€chemistry€will€effect€the€performance.€€This€is€a€chemical€process.€€TheĻperformance€of€any€given€control€technology€depends€on€the€chemistry€of€the€mercury€coming€in.€ĻThereššs€lots€of€factors.€€We€donššt€understand€all€the€factors€that€even€influence€that€at€this€point.€ĻSo,€this€time€variability,€the€variable€coal€supply€variability€are€two€things€that€weššre€reallyĻworried€about€when€we€go€to€start€trying€to€set€a€MACT€floor.€€The€other€point,€based€on€the€setĻof€MACT€data€is€really€the€statistical€looking€at€the€whole€population.€€Youššve€got€a€smallĻsample.€€Itššs€less€than€ten€percent€of€all€the€plants€that€sit€out€there.€€Youššre€trying€to€make€aĻjudgment€of€the€whole€population.€€You€need€to€sort€of€look€at€each€population€and€how€manyĻare€in€there.€€The€case€in€point€is€the€bituminous€coal€plants€with€cold„side€ESPššs€are€statisticallyĻvery€much€under„represented€in€the€ICR€data€so€that€youššre€sort€of€biasing€it€towards€some€otherĻcontrol€technologies€when€you€go€out€there€and€look€at€the€population,€thatššs€the€biggest€set€ofĻplants€out€there.€€And€just€to,€Felice,€weššre€interested€in€doing€long„term€tests€and€Iššm€attemptingĻto€buy€one€of€these€monitors€right€now.€€Theyššre€very€research„type€instruments€at€this€point,Ļrequire€a€lot€of€š!š€almost€a€PhD€sitting€there€owning€and€operating€it€and€so€Iššm€having€troubleĻbuying€one.€€Thereššs€a€lot€of€demand€for€them€so€there€must€be€a€lot€of€other€people€looking€atĻthe€same€thing.ĢĢJim€Kilgroe:€There€is€probably€only€12€monitors€in€the€U.S.€with€speciating€capability€and€thereššsĻa€lot€of€demand€for€the€monitors€at€different€sites€right€now€and€weššre€trying€to€work€out€in€theĻresearch€program€between€ourselves€and€I€guess€weššre€working€with€OAQPS€and€utility€industryĻtrying€to€figure€out€where€do€you€use€the€plants,€the€monitors€and€how€to€use€them.ĢĢPraveen€Amar:€A€few€questions.€€I€started€the€word€š švariabilityšš€so€I€got€to€say€a€few€things.€€IĻthink€Pat,€you€had€a€point€and€then€Sally€said€that€maybe€you€look€at€the€data€with€respect€toĻvariability.€€I€remember,€Bob,€you€had€a€data€sometime€at€one€meeting€you€showed€where€youĻhad€this€statical€distribution€of€mercury€and€coal€for€various€kinds€of€coals.€€And€also€the€ICRĻwhen€it€was€done,€that€did€measure€mercury€on€that€day€besides€measuring€mercury€for€variousĻcoals€also€on€that€day.€€So,€I€think€the€question€might€be€for€those€units€where€you€have€theĻmercury€and€the€coal€on€that€day€as€well€as€mercury€for€that€power€plant€over€a€larger€period€ofĻtime€to€see€where€you€fit€in€respect€to€50ņņthóó€percentile€or€75ņņthóó€or€whatever.€€I€think€that€could€beŠ |*Ģ%) Šuseful€information€by€itself,€whether€that€test€on€that€day€was€representative€of€the€coal€in€general.€Š h+ø&* ŠNumber€two,€I€think€that€the€point€is€not€that€mercury€in€coal€is€variable,€so€it€is.€€I€think€theĻquestion€becomes€what€that€means€respect€to€the€control€technology€down€the€road€and€how€thatĻwill€be€effected.€€Weššve€been€used€to€the€idea€of€variability€respect€to€NOņņxóó€in€fuel€oil.€€Itššs€all€overŠ ˆŲ Šthe€place,€but€you€still€got€a€control€equipment€with€a€certain€performance€standards.€€I€think€theĻthing€to€look,€not€withstanding€the€questions€which€might€be€raised,€municipal€waste€combustors.€ĻWe€are€controlling€mercury€today€from€municipal€waste€combustors€with€variability€of€mercuryĻand€the€municipal€waste,€which€is€all€over€the€place.€€We€have€a€performance€standard€at€thisĻtime,€28€micrograms€per€meter€cubed,€which€is€being€met€by€many€municipal€waste€combustorsĻtoday€with€carbon€injection€and€baghouses.€€In€fact,€lot€lower€values,€two,€or€three,€or€fourĻmicrograms€per€meter€cubed€at€least€in€places€in€Massachusetts.€€Not€withstanding€the€point€thatĻpower€plants€are€different€than€municipal€waste€combustors,€they€got€a€high€floor€rates€and€lowĻmercury€concentrations,€but€still€the€point€is€that€we€have€established€a€set€number€on€the€otherĻend€knowing€things€are€variable€on€this€end.€€So,€just€because€itššs€variable,€mercury€that€is€in€coalĻor€mercury€in€the€stack€gases,€does€not€mean€you€canššt€get€on€the€other€end€a€well€definiteĻnumber.€€I€mean,€we€have€done€that€with€municipal€combustors€and€again€I€said€that€there€areĻdifferences,€but€I€think€one€should€look€at€the€real€world€experience€now€and€how€we€got€thereĻknowing€things€were€variable.ĢĢMartha€Keating:€Thanks.€€I€have€a€similar€comment€as€to€what€Praveen€just€said€about€theĻvariability€over€time€and€that€these€are€short„term€tests.€€One€of€the€striking€things€about€the€ICRĻdata€was€when€everything€was€said€and€done€and€the€emission€factors€are€recalculated€and€so€on,Ļwe€came€out€with€48€tons€per€year€and€compared€that€to€the€number€that€was€generated€in€1996,Ļwhich€was€52€tons€per€year,€it€turned€out€that€these€emission€factors€arenššt€that€bad.€€In€1996,Ļthere€were€52€tests.€€Here€we€have€86€more€and€still€weššre€seeing€very€similar€numbers€and€if€youĻlook€at€a€plant„by„plant€basis,€between€86€and€1999€the€numbers€again€are€very€similar€for€most€ofĻthese€plants,€so€I€think€Iššm€agreeing€with€what€Praveen€said,€when€you€look€at€variability€over€aĻlonger€time,€say€an€annual€average,€you€know,€what€does€it€matter€that€week€one€itššs€one€thingĻand€week€two€itššs€another€thing€when€you€look€at€all€52€weeks.€€It€goes€up€and€down€and€mayĻsmooth€themselves€out.ĢĢBill€Becker:€I€just€wanted€to€push€back€a€bit€on€Leeššs€comment€about€arraying€the€bestĻperforming€facilities.€€I€think€itššs€really€important€that€„„€the€law€is€clear€and€I€guess€our€mission,€IĻthink€is€clear,€is€that€weššre€trying€to€help€EPA€identify€at€least€the€mercury€MACT€and€it€is€basedĻupon€the€average€of€the€top€twelve€percent€performing€facilities.€€Iššd€like€to€know€just€forĻinformational€purposes€what€the€average€of€the€top€twelve€percent€performing€facilities€are€andĻthen€from€that,€it€would€helpful€and€here€is€where€I€agree€with€you,€it€would€be€helpful€then€toĻlook€at€those€plants€and€determine€whether€or€not€they€are€a€fair€representative€of€sources€orĻwhether€their€data€should€be€thrown€out,€but€what€I€hear€you€suggesting€is€we€kind€of€wait€andĻwait€to€see€whatššs€š!š€we€throw€out€things€first€and€then€see€what€is€left€and€end€up€with€a€farĻlessor€population.€€I€think€the€bottom€line€is€how€well€the€facilities€are€performing€and€then€lookĻat€the€data€after€we€have€that€arrayed.€€I€think€that€would€be€helpful€to€regulators€in€not€just€StateĻand€local€regulators,€but€I€would€think€Federal€regulators€in€making€the€best€decision.ĢŠ h+ø&* ŠJim€Kilgroe:€Yeah,€I€think€itššs€important€to€ask€the€question€whether€or€not€the€facility€isĻrepresentative€because€some€of€the€š!š€I€know€that€at€least€one€of€the€facilities€had€two€ESPššs€inĻseries€and€they€got€very€high€capture€because€I€think€of€the€high€residence€time€and€they€wereĻburning€an€unusual€coal€and€they€had€an€unusually€high€carbon€content.€€So,€for€some€cases€evenĻthough€it€may€be€a€best€performing€facility,€it€may€be€non„representative€and€then€we€have€toĻreally€look€closely€at€what€we€do€with€that€facility.ĢĢJim€Pew:€Excuse€me.€€Why€wouldnššt€that€be€a€representative€facility?ĢJim€Kilgroe:€Because€number€one€itššs€burning€South€American€coal;€number€two€itššs€got€25Ļpercent€carbon€in€the€fly€ash;€and,€then,€three€itššs€got€ESPššs€in€series.€€There€was€an€old€set€ofĻESPššs€and€then€they€retrofit€and€put€another€set€of€ESPššs€out€there,€so€you€are€going€through€twoĻESPššs.€€So,€for€all€of€those€three€reasons,€it€is€not€representative.ĢĢJim€Pew:€Actually,€I€was€particularly€curious€about€the€last€one€because€my€understanding€is€thatĻthe€very€purpose€of€this€to€determine€the€best€sources.€€So,€if€you€have€some€sources€that€areĻusing€two€ESPššs,€those€may€be€the€best€sources.€€They€are€doing€the€most€to€control€theirĻemissions.ĢĢMartha€Keating:€And€another€thing€is€you€didnššt€measure€carbon€at€all€of€the€facilities€so€how€doĻyou€know€that€only€one€plant€has€25€carbon?ĢĢLarry€Monroe:€I€just€want€to€make€a€couple€of€comments€to€what€Praveen€said€about€municipalĻwaste€incinerators.€€They€have€limits€there.€€The€limits€are€higher€than€the€majority€of€the€coalĻpopulation€there,€so€in€a€lot€of€coal€plants€uncontrolled€just€with€ESPššs€are€emitting€what€the€bestĻperforming€plants€in€Massachusetts€under€control.€€What€you€run€into€here€is€the€law€ofĻdiminishing€returns.€€To€try€to€get€that€next€little€bit€to€try€to€sort€through€and€find€that€moleculeĻof€mercury€is€much€much€harder€in€a€coal€plant€because€the€levels€are€so€low€as€compared€toĻthose.€€So,€if€I€have€lots€of€variation,€but€the€numbers€are€very€high,€it€doesnššt€matter€becauseĻthatššs€easier€to€do€than€variations€where€I€have€very€little€that€Iššm€trying€to€control.€€Iššm€trying€toĻchase€very€few€molecules€and€trying€to€capture€those.€€And€then€I€had€a€second€comment€aboutĻthe€trying€to€use€annual€emissions€estimates€to€try€to€then€back€in€and€say€that€the€data€we€have€atĻhand€is€adequate€to€do€this,€but€the€real€problem€is€we€have€these€snapshots€and€thatššs€the€data€weĻhave,€generally€done€over€two€days,€sometimes€three€days,€and€being€in€the€power€industry,€EPAĻscares€us,€so€if€you€look€at€those€plants,€you€will€find€that€they€had€lots€of€management€attention.€ĻThey€were€sort€on€their€best€behavior€when€that€sort€of€testing€was€going€so€at€least,€I€have€anĻopinion€that€those€numbers€are€biased€somewhat€and€donššt€represent€day€in€and€day€outĻoperation.ĢĢPraveen€Amar:€Thatššs€why€I€used€the€word€notwithstanding€and€Iššm€not€even€a€lawyer.€€There€areĻdifferences€in€municipal€waste€combustors,€Larry,€to€power€plants€but€if€you€look€at€normalizedĻvariability€and€all€I€was€saying€was€maybe€there€is€something€to€learn€based€on€real€experience€outĻthere,€notwithstanding€the€differences€and€very€large€concentrations€in€municipal€wasteĻcombustors€and€not€so€high€in€power€plants€and€the€flow€rates,€I€still€think€there€may€beŠ h+ø&* Šsomething€to€learn€based€on€the€questions€we€are€raising€here,€that€is€how€to€handle€thisĻvariability.€€At€least€with€municipal€waste€combustors€variability€here€still€leads€to€a€definiteĻanswer€on€the€other€end.€€With€power€plants€it€may€not,€or€it€may,€or€maybe€in€a€modified€form,Ļbut€I€think€itššs€something€we€should€learn€from€because€there€is€lot€of€data,€not€just€inĻMassachusetts€but€in€other€States,€too.ĢĢLarry€Monroe:€I€would€agree.€€I€think€weššre€very€interested€in€getting€more€data€on€the€variabilityĻto€see€how€š!š€what€the€performance€is€over€long„term€and€that€is€one€of€our€main,€from€anĻindustry€point€of€view,€the€main€problem€in€using€just€the€ICR€data€trying€to€set€these€floors.ĢĢJohn€Paul:€Okay,€we€have€time€for€one€or€two€questions€from€those€that€are€on€the€phone.€€Okay,Ļhearing€none,€the€question€before€us€is€the€adequacy€of€the€data€and€weššve€heard€a€coupleĻconcerns€and€letššs€talk€just€for€a€minute€about€what€the€group€really€feels€needs€to€be€done€withĻthe€data€to€shore€it€up.€€Iššve€got€four€things€listed.€€Letššs€see€if€weššve€got€anything€to€add€to€this.€ĻThe€first€one€is€sorting€of€the€data.€€Ranking€of€the€best€performers€by€emission€rate.€€SecondĻthing€I€have€is€looking€at€the€coal€variability€and€trying€to€determine€whether€or€not€that€effectsĻperformance,€such€that€really€does€that€have€any€kind€of€an€influence€on€this€ranking€of€bestĻperformers.€€Also€with€that€question€is€what€are€different€ways€that€we€can€look€at€that€ranking€ofĻbest€performers€which€we€agree€is€from€stack€tests€that€would€indicate€whether€or€not€long„termĻperformance€would€be€any€different€than€that€ranking€from€the€stack€tests.€€I€also€have€a€questionĻas€to€whether€or€not€we€could€get€some€data€presented€with€regard€to€the€oil„fired€boilers€and€IĻthink€we€have€a€question€as€to€the€adequacy€of€the€data€on€HAP€other€than€mercury.ĢĢSally€Shaver:€There€is€another€issue€on€sequencing,€to€look€into€sequencing€and...ĢĢJim€Pew:€Did€you€want€any€comments€on€other€issues€at€this€point?ĢĢJohn€Paul:€First€of€all€let€me€get€some€feedback€on€those€I€just€listed,€plus€sequencing.ĢĢLee€Zeugin:€I€guess€Iššd€ask€the€question€of€speciation€and€the€prediction€of€speciation€because€itĻseems€to€thatššs€at€the€core€of€most€of€these€issues.ĢĢJohn€Paul:€Is€your€question€aimed€at,€okay,€these€stack€test€data€show€something,€can€theĻspeciation€change€that€would€influence€that?€€Is€that€your€question€there?ĢĢLee€Zeugin:€Thatššs€right.€€When€you€look€at€the€coal€data,€you€can€look€at€the€coal€data€to€simplyĻsay,€how€much€does€mercury€change€for€a€given€plant€over€the€course€of€a€year€and€that€wouldĻgive€you€some€information,€but€weššve€also€learned€that€speciation€is€dependent€on€otherĻconstituents€of€the€coal,€such€as€chloride€content,€and€it€may€well€be€that€the€speciation€thatĻoccurs€at€a€given€plant€over€the€course€of€a€year€varies€significantly.€€If€it€does,€that€has€aĻtremendous€effect€on€removal€rates€and€whatššs€being€emitted€from€the€stack€and€without€beingĻable€to€understand€that,€I€donššt€think€you€can€get€at€the€issue€of€long„term€variability€short€ofĻgoing€out€and€measuring€it€at€all€these€plants€over€an€extended€period€of€time.Š h+ø&* Š‡John€Paul:€Okay,€so€thatššs€really€a€subset€on€variability€and€whether€or€not€the€long„term€š!š€one€ofĻthe€reasons€why€long„term€performance€could€be€different€than€the€stack€test€snapshots€that€weĻhave.ĢĢBill:€Okay,€any€other€additions€to€this€list?ĢĢJim€Pew:€If€I€understand€you€right,€youššve€told€us€that€the€vast€majority€of€emissions€data€is€basedĻon€the€performance€of€one€technology€even€if€there€might€be€a€series€of€pieces€of€technology€onĻthe€plant€and€so,€and€if€I€also€understand€you€right€that€means€that€we€donššt€really€know€what€theĻactual€emissions€performance€is€of€the€plants€with€several€pieces€of€technology€out€there.€€There€isĻonly€š!š€I€think€you€said€thereššs€only€one€test€that€reflects€that.ĢĢJohn€Paul:€No,€thereššs€only€one€test€that€reflects€an€inlet/outlet€over€all€of€the€control€devices,€butĻwe€had€what,€86€tests€that€show€the€actual€performance.ĢĢJim€Pew:€Oh,€and€that€includes€all€the€devices?ĢĢBill:€YesĢĢJim€Pew:€Thank€you.ĢĢLee€Zeugin:€I€guess€the€one€other€question,€and€this€goes€to€the€sorting€of€the€data€or€selectingĻthe€best€performing€plant,€it€seems€to€me€you€can€do€that€using€one€of€two€techniques,€you€canĻeither€look€at€the€performance€in€terms€of€stack€concentrations€and€rank€plants€based€on€that€orĻyou€have€data€on€the€inlet€coal€concentrations€versus€whatššs€going€out€the€stack€such€that€youĻcould€calculate€a€percent€removal€for€plants.€€I€think€you€will€find€depending€on€which€of€thoseĻtwo€methodologies€that€you€pick€you€will€end€up€with€different€plants€in€the€š štop€twelve€percentššĻor€alternatively€the€best€performing€plant€and€so€even€if€you€want€to€go€forward€with€sorting,€itĻseems€to€me€that€you€have€to,€at€least€at€this€point€until€we€make€some€kind€of€decision€orĻrecommendation,€look€at€both€stack€concentration€and€percent€removal€because€they€are€going€toĻgive€you€different€lists,€probably.ĢĢJohn€Paul:€We€can€address€that.€€So,€alright,€the€question,€then€is€to€EPA,€given€these€that€weĻlisted€here,€the€question€is,€can€we€do€this€š!š€by€when€can€we€do€this,€such€that€when€should€weĻmeet€next€because€I€would€assume€that€we€would€want€to€do€this€before€we€meet€again.ĢĢFelice€Stadler:€I€was€just€curious€whether€the€companies€are€planning€to€pull€together€some€of€theĻstack€test€data€that€they€already€have€in€their€possession€that€might€not€be€part€of€the€86€becauseĻwhat€I€think€would€be€interesting€is€EPA€does€the€ranking€and€it€might€be€interesting€to€do€theĻtwo€rankings,€but€again,€Iššm€concerned€that€if€you€look€at€percent€removal,€again,€we€are€going€toĻstart€focusing€too€quickly€on€the€what€the€particular€technology€is€doing€and€again€what€weššreĻsuppose€to€look€at€is€what€the€best€performers€are€doing€and€I€donššt€š!š€there€might€be€someĻdifferences€there,€but€it€would€be€interesting€to€have€the€ranking€and€then€to€see€the€companiesŠ h+ø&* Špresent€some€of€their€information€and€say€you€know€what,€we€have€a€boiler€that€is€actuallyĻperforming€better,€although€I€donššt€know€if€we€would€see€that€or€if€it€would€be€revealed€but€itĻwould€be€again€good€to€have€that€data€compiled€and€presented€so€that€our€data€set€couldĻhopefully€grow€from€those€86€boilers.ĢĢJohn€Paul:€Yeah,€I€was€thinking€exactly€the€same.€€Obviously,€thereššs€going€to€be€other€data€outĻthere€and€probably€what€will€precipitate,€bring€that€data€forward,€will€be€what€weššve€outlinedĻhere.€€Once€we€see€this,€then€I€would€assume€that€people€that€have€data€that€can€either€add€to€thatĻor€differentiate€from€that€then€we€would€see€that.ĢĢBill€Becker:€I€have€a€process€question.€€You€were€about€ready€to€ask€us€what€š!š€ask€EPA€what€doĻthey€want€to€do€with€this€and€this€I€guess€is€arraying€the€data€and€responding€to€all€theseĻinformation€requests,€but€I€have€a€process€question€for€either€you€John,€or€Sally,€and€that€is€canĻyou€help€me€to€understand€what€your€vision€of€the€next€couple€or€three€meetings€is€going€to€be?€ĻDo€you€have€a€date€by€which€you€expect€to€come€up€with€a€product€and€the€product€is€going€toĻbe€generally€something€and€to€find€that€something.€€Iššd€like€to€sort€of€know€what€you€are€thinkingĻabout€the€next€couple€of€three€meetings.€€That€might€help€me€understand€whether€we€push€you€toĻhave€this€in€two€weeks€or€in€two€months.ĢĢSally€Shaver:€We€have€a€schedule€that€is€on€the€website.€€You€should€have€that€with€you.€€I€didnšštĻbring€my€copy€but€thankfully€John€had€his.€€It€was€put€up€sometime€earlier€in€October.€€It€lists€outĻthe€meeting€schedules.€€We€were€talking€today€about€data€adequacy.€€We€will€be,€once€weššve€hadĻthis€discussion,€look€at€the€data€a€little€bit€more,€we€would€be€initiating€subcategories€and€floorĻdiscussions€and€this€calendar€runs€up€to€signature€and€promulgation€of€the€rule,€as€you€know€weĻwill€be€proposing€in€2003.€€So€obviously,€input€to€the€floor€determinations€will€need€to€be€madeĻover€the€next€year.€€Sometimes€it€usually€takes€us€a€while€to€write€these€things€up€and€once€weĻmake€the€decisions€and€everything.€€So,€that€schedule€is€fairly€detailed.€€I€would€suggest€that€youĻreference€that.€€In€terms€of€the€next€couple€of€meetings€this€may€surprise€you,€but€I€donššt€have€aĻlist€of€everything€we€plan€to€present€at€every€meeting€laid€out€at€this€point€because€we€are€tryingĻto€respond€to€your€comments€and€your€questions€and€your€issues€and€as€you€see€there€are€thenĻfour€or€five€things€on€the€list€today.€€I€guess€the€main€question€that€I€would€like€to€ask€is€our€nextĻworking€group€meeting€was€basically€scheduled€for€January€and€we€were€offering€one€inĻDecember€to€catch€up.€€The€other€question€is€do€you€think€the€one€in€December€is€enough€for€aĻcatch€up€since€the€one€today€was€fairly€short,€or€do€you€need,€we€are€willing€to€do€two€betweenĻnow€and€the€January€meeting€and€address€some€of€these€issues€that€you€talked€about.€€I€canššt€tellĻyou€at€the€moment€and€neither€can€Bill€or€Bob€which€of€these€things€that€we€were€talked€aboutĻtoday€we€could€have€ready€in€two€weeks.€€Some€of€them€we€feel€like€we€could€but€certainly€byĻthe€first€of€December€we€should€be€able€to€address€a€number€of€those€at€that€time€and€moveĻforward.€€So,€I€guess€the€question€is€do€you€want€an€extra€meeting€thrown€in€there€right€beforeĻThanksgiving€and€then€go€ahead€and€continue€to€hold€the€one€in€December€as€well.ĢĢFelice€Stadler:€Is€there€a€possibility€to€do€a€conference€call€and€then€a€face„to„face€in€December€asĻopposed€to€two€face„to„faces?€€I€donššt€know€how€many€of€you€travel€from€out€of€town,€but€thatŠ h+ø&* Šmight...ĢĢJohn€Paul:€It€certainly€would€be€valuable€if€EPA€were€to€be€able€to€produce€some€of€these€thingsĻthat€I€think€we€agreed€upon€and€get€those€distributed€to€us€and€I€think€at€some€point€differentĻgroups€may€want€to€hold€their€own€conference€calls,€too.€€States€and€locals€I€think€will€want€toĻtalk€about€the€data€as€we€get€it€and€start€to€look€at€it.€€So,€this€would€give€you€time.€€If€EPA€wereĻto€e„mail€to€the€working€group€the€different€items€as€they€are€identified€and€maybe€the€first€thingĻthat€EPA€could€do€is€to€list€a€schedule€for€how€and€when€theyššre€going€to€respond€to€these€sixĻthings€that€we€have€identified.€€Then€if€they€ship€them€out€as€they€identify€them€and€then€if€we€getĻtogether,€letššs€say€December€18ņņthóó€to€discuss€all€that,€how€does€that€sound?€€Thereššs€no€smilingŠ ü L  Šfaces€on€that?ĢĢJohn€Paul:€That€is€the€other€question,€in€RTP€or€in€Washington?ĢĢJohn€Paul:€December€would€be€here,€so€letššs€assume€that.€€So€EPA€will€give€a€list€of€the€itemsĻthat€they€are€going€to€work€on,€a€schedule€for€those,€theyššll€ship€them€out€as€they€complete€themĻand€we€will€set€a€meeting€for€probably€December€the€18ņņthóó€and€Bill€Becker€will€host€the€meeting.€Š pĄ ŠWeššll€hold€it€in€the€STAPPA/ALAPCO€building€because€we€agreed€to€host€every€other€meeting,ĻStates€and€Locals€did,€so€we€can€do€that.€€In€the€Hall€of€States€Building.€€Does€that€sound€good?€ĻDo€we€have€any€problems€with€that?ĢĢFelice€Stadler:€Just€to€clarify,€you€said€that€weššll€have€the€face„to„face€December.€€If€severalĻgroups€want€to€have€a€call€before€then,€thatššs€possible,€but€we€could€also€decide€as€a€group€if€aĻfull€call€would€be€appropriate€and€we€have€that€option?ĢĢJohn€Paul:€Sure,€sure.ĢĢ?:€Did€I€hear€you€suggest€a€meeting€date€for€the€December€meeting?ĢĢJohn€Paul:€December€the€18ņņthóó€was€what€I€was€suggesting,€starting€at€10€a.m.€€Okay?Š l¼ ŠĢBill€Becker:€Thank€you€for€putting€together€the€schedule.€€That€is€exactly€what€I€was€looking€for.ĢĢJohn€Paul:€Okay,€any€other€closing€comments?€€If€not,€we€will€stand€adjourned.€€Thank€you€veryĻmuch.